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Dear Atheists.......?

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Dear Atheists.......?

Postby Aarman » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:40 am

To be any laws their has to be a lawmaker in the first place. Or did the laws of maths and physics develop on their own.

And as for natural selection/evolution i don't disagree but, things don't evolve by themselves someone has to make them evolve.

A normal phone with buttons doesn't evolve buy its self in to a touch screen phone. Neither does a normal PC evolve into a laptop by itself. At the end of the day, what i'm saying is. Things don't design, select and evolve themselves- someone has to be running the whole show.

Or thats just like saying, 'oh, look my phone has added a new programme or feature all by its self'. It evolved and developed and 'wallah' their we have bluetooth or any other program. That isn't logic right?

So how can things evolving 'themselves' be logic
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Dear Atheists.......?

Postby Darrel » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:48 am

Yeah...see physics doesn't really work that way.
The laws all fall apart at the quantum level too.
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Postby Trevian » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:03 pm

Evolution in nature and evolution in technology are completely different things.
You're comparing apples and oranges. That argument makes no sense. Animals have evolved naturally for millions of years. Cell phones don't evolve. New models are made.
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Postby Millman » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:41 pm

Laws are prescribed by a law giver but in cosmology, the laws are merely descriptions made by humans in order to make sense of a chaotic condition e.g. making a law to model the shape of a waterfall where the waterfall is just a random formation but for humans to wish to model it will describe laws around it.

The same applies to thermodynamics, spacetime and gravity. All are random conditions that emerged after the Big Bang began to cool down. They are the result of chaotic conditions where no law can be ascribed due to the total entropy that existed. The laws we have now are only temporary descriptions to describe this relative calm in the storm which will one day be incorrect as the universe slowly degrades back into a state of total chaos.

Humans can make a law for just about everything we see such as the formation of a perfectly shaped Mickey Mouse forming in the clouds. Was the cloud "intentionally designed"? No. It wasn't. The cloud formed from random condensing patterns which we humans develop descriptive laws in order to explain how the Miceky Mouse cloud appeared. The same goes for the universe.

As for evolution, no one is "making things evolve". Evolution is a mistake in the DNA replication process that produces random permutations of itself which is then weeded out by Natural Selection.

In a nutshell, evolution is caused by a malfunction in the DNA processes due to its error-prone replication system which causes small or large mutations in the new copies of itself. These mutated copies are then thrown at Natural Selection where it tries to exterminate them into oblivion by a number of barbaric tools like miscarriage, starvation, sickness or by sexual avoidance.

Successful evolution occurs when a species generates an accidental mutation that just so happens to evade the Natural Selection Blender of Death. It doesn't have to be the fittest. It just has to have the right mutation at the right moment.

Most of these evolutionary mutations come about when a species is being pulverized by something - be it the weather or a new invasive predator. The smaller populations make inbreeding corruption rates significantly higher which makes mutation rates skyrocket. This high rate of mutation causes better chances for evolutionary adaptation at the expense of higher defects.

Our own human lineage evolved from such an accident - the accidental fusion of chromosomes 2p and 2q in the offspring of an ancient primate that is now extinct. In light of the advantage it gave us, we know this fusion is accidental because it also spawned many potential genetic disorders like teenage diabetes, autism, colon cancer, schizophrenia, alzheimers, degenerative blindness at birth and the cortical tremors associated with epillepsy. Any deletion of the fusion genes like the deletion of 2p11.2 results in chimpanzee-like evolution where the individual presents with chimpanzee IQ levels, significantly shortened stature, broad flat nose and enlarged jaws.

And theres also a flip side to this erroneous fusions. Human males are being born with an EXTRA Y chromosome - called XYY syndrome. Its not fatal and causes no diseases. It only causes increased growth velocity in boys and an enhanced stature. It is living proof that added complexity can arise from random errors in DNA transcriptions. XYY males have an extra 50 million base pairs in their DNA compared to the rest of us which makes them a potentially new macroevolutionary genesis for humans - provided our population dwindles down to a few thousand people.

Among the many misconceptions, Evolution does not mean "development" or "improvement". Evolution is only about "change". Whether it is change for better or change for worse, it doesnt matter because Evolution is random. Sometimes a species evolves a certain trait that later causes its extinction like the desert chamelion that evolved a bright red spot which attracted more sexual partners thus overtaking the population - an evolutionary success. However, it later attracted the eyes of something else - the desert falcon - and now they are all extinct.

Evolution is no longer the realm of mystery and theory. Even macroevolutionary proof has been discovered such as this: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/0...

Your phone example is flawed because phones and computers are made with inert material - material that is resistant to all forms of change - so by fiat, must require a builder. In contrast, life is made with organic material - material that is significantly affected both chemically and caustically and readily forms new adaptations upon contact with other organic or inorganic matter and does not require the energy of a builder.
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Postby Pancho » Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:28 pm

So you cannot do a single thing for yourself unless an imaginary entity does it for you?

Yep that illustrates exactly why people like yourself are making such a laughingstock of Christianity!.
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Postby Allister » Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:37 am

Legal laws do require a law maker, natural laws do not. The laws of physics simply are, and always have been.

Your second point is also fallacious, you cannot simply assert things don't evolve by themselves, you need to provide a logical argument or evidence, you have done neither.

Phones do not evolve by themselves, but then living things aren't phones, are they? So this point is illogical too, it's a 'false 'equivilancy'. Living things eat, excrete, respond to stimulus, and reproduce. Phones do none of those things.

Things do not evolve themselves. Evolution is gradual changes over time, through multiple generations.

I suggest you try to educate yourself further before you try to debate atheists, as we are usually much, much more informed on these issues than christians.

We live in a universe with natural laws that allow for a gradual increase in complexity that produces simple amino acids, single celled organisms, and eventually leads to complex life such as ourselves. A creator is not needed for such a universe, god as an answer is deeply unsatisfying.
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